Curse

TopGun · Mar 12, 2006, 03:32 PM // 15:32

If energy management isn't an issue for you, why not make it a Ritualist primary then? The extra 50% hp your minions have would be beneficial to you, and the Ri energy management is good enough to match that of the Necro's, isn't it? So where's your logic in making a N/Ri instead of a Ri/N? Is it just for sixteen death magic?

I stock 8-10 pts soul reaping. It makes minion generation easy, and if I need to crucify one for a little Energy boost, it's worth it. But Ritualist energy management, with the skill "Boon of Creation," is basically a REVERSE of soul reaping. Now, rather than gaining energy on a kill, you gain energy on animation. Sure, now you can't sacrifice your little blobs of sticky goo, but you'll probably be able to generate a much more sizable force using minions (rather than horrors) because minions trigger the boon twice, thus making your healing more efficient.

But you said your healing is already top-notch, right? Well, then you can use that extra energy to make spirits, therein increasing your damage output.

Looking at all the listed arguments... I think I'm going to have to put my money on Ri/N being better for walking bombs, and N/Ri being better for real minions (due to the damage increase of your minions/horrors at 16 Death). A problem I often have with Soul Reaping is that multiple minions will die simultaneously, thus boosting my Energy to 40ish and making further souls useless to reap. Boon avoids this issue by only giving you the energy when you really NEED it. Again, we go back to efficiency.

Either way, Goth chicks will always be the hottest ;-)

Vilaptca · Mar 12, 2006, 04:30 PM // 16:30

I'm with Carinae on this. I'll be trying a N/Rt this upcoming preview event.

If it turns out that N/Rt is a godly MM machine, than Vilaptca Blackwyn will be changing his secondary profession.

If I have the time, maybe I can try a Rt/N too during the event. But I'm still not sure a Rt could be a better MM than a Necro.

Homicidal Brainiac · Mar 12, 2006, 06:45 PM // 18:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by TopGun

The Ritualist has a very powerful primary attribute, increasing the health of all her summoned creatures. Thus, a minion master ritualist could feasibly be very powerful in PVE, but will mana become a problem? I have Soul Reaping 10 pts on my current Minion Master necromancer, and that permits me to run an astonishing number of minions at a time with Vereta's and Blood of the Master. Does anyone here think it would be possible to run similar minion-heavy builds with a ritualist primary? Will the mana sacrifice balance out with the increased minion power?

great idea

will try it out.

Really, the whole point of the MM is too keep your minions alive, so I think spawning power is better than Soul Reaping, which doesn't have any spells in it neway, and that you can gain a decent amount of energy with Boon of Creation.

All this build lacks is a good AoE healing spell.

TopGun · Mar 13, 2006, 12:39 AM // 00:39

I wish we could find more people interested in trying out the Ri/N and N/Ri, I'd really like to see feedback on everyone's results. Unfortunately, I might not be able to play too much during the weekend, but if I do get a chance it'll be with a Ri/N. Anyone else looking to try out either build?

Synthos · Mar 13, 2006, 03:17 AM // 03:17

The Ri/N builds will definately be interesting..

Not only will your minions will be 400% stronger, they also have the capacity to explode when they are created (explosive growth) and explode when they die (death nova). And also if you decide to go the spirit way as well, recuperation works to your advantage because they wont lose health as fast with the +4 health regen. And also there are quite a few amazing ways to heal all your minions as well, Like consume Soul or Feast of Souls. This is going to be an extremely powerfull build.

Im actually itching to try out Signet Of Creation and death nova..
"All spirits and animated creatures in the area gain + 1-6 Health regeneration. After 30 seconds, those spirits and creatures are destroyed." This would definately work as an interesting bomb, mabey a bit hard to set up.

The only downside appears to be energy issues, When MM necromancers get started they have this amazing living battery that follows them around. Minions are created, they slowly become weaker and then they die.. and then you get enough energy to cast another minion spell.. Ritualists only seem to have Boon of Creation to offset the massive energy cost of minions.

I'm quite a dedicated MM so naturally i tried out a few things during the beta.
1. Spawning Power definately does work on minions, it makes a noticable difference.
2. Explosive Growth works with minions, this will be wonderfull because it will set up that wonderfull chain reaction of death that necros love so much.
I actually have tried spawning power on minions and they do seem to be noticably stronger then the level 18 ones,

Da Deathblade · Mar 13, 2006, 05:57 PM // 17:57

hehe interesting thoughts, just letting you know its actually Rt not Ri.

Mordakai · Mar 13, 2006, 06:12 PM // 18:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by TopGun

I wish we could find more people interested in trying out the Ri/N and N/Ri, I'd really like to see feedback on everyone's results. Unfortunately, I might not be able to play too much during the weekend, but if I do get a chance it'll be with a Ri/N. Anyone else looking to try out either build?

Hopefully, I'll be able to try both.

Advantage of N/Rt: Energy from everything, including any Spirits you summon. 16 in Death.

Advantage of Rt/N: Spawning... that's pretty much it. So, unless you feel the HP bonus is better than the increased armor and attacks of Level 18 minions....

Still, I want to make a Rt/N for PvE at least, to pick up Necro skills and to have a Ritualist which I've wanted from the preview event. My other option is a Rt/Ra, but that doesn't exploit the Spawning Primary as much.

So, right now I'm thinking my two new chars will be a Rt/N and a Ra/A (I have no desire to make a Assassin primary, but I still want to unlock the skills!)

Carinae · Mar 14, 2006, 06:30 PM // 18:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by TopGun

Looking at all the listed arguments... I think I'm going to have to put my money on Ri/N being better for walking bombs, and N/Ri being better for real minions (due to the damage increase of your minions/horrors at 16 Death).

That's my take on it as well, at this point.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TopGun

A problem I often have with Soul Reaping is that multiple minions will die simultaneously, thus boosting my Energy to 40ish and making further souls useless to reap. Boon avoids this issue by only giving you the energy when you really NEED it. Again, we go back to efficiency.

A trick that helps with this is to have a 'high-energy' weapon set that you can use when you get large numbers of minions. (40+) Take a 15/-1 wand and 27/-1 offhand.

You'll lose two pips of regen, but with 40-80+ minions, the pips are dwarfed by the return from SR. The big thing the High-E set does is buy you time. Time to expend the energy before it goes to waste.

It's crazy, but MM's supporting large numbers of minions sometimes need to expend enormous quantities of energy in a short time if you're going to preserve efficiency.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TopGun

Either way, Goth chicks will always be the hottest ;-)

QFT!

Grimm · Mar 14, 2006, 11:03 PM // 23:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glasswalker

What does the average MM have in Soul Reaping? 5+1 or so? So we have:

IF you're seriously doing minions you're going to need more than that. I have at least 10 total in soul reaping. If you're doing minions all you need is death and soul-reaping.

Grimm · Mar 14, 2006, 11:08 PM // 23:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by LifeInfusion

It's scary that Ritualists might be more viable Minion Masters, but I have come to disprove your theory.

THE ARGUMENT
Ritualists' primary attribute regards stuff you "create (or animate) and gives them 4% extra health per rank in Spawning power attribute.

REGARDING ATTRIBUTES
HOWEVER, you must remember that you go full 12 attribute in spawning power, a spawnign power headgear, plus a spawning power superior rune just to achieve the 16 spawning power. That basically means if you go 16 spawning power and 12 death you have only 3 attribute levels left, which isn't all too useful.

Also, it is not just HP that is gained per rank in Death Magic but armor AND attack power as well.

REGARDING SKILLS
Plus, you have to think of how you will keep the minions alive. Blood of the master at 12 Death Magic is only 99 Health healed but at 16 Death it is 122 health healed.

Signet of Creation gives 1-7 regen of animated creatures. Verata's Sacrifice gives 10 health regen for 17 seconds at 12 Death and 21 seconds at 16 Death.

Taste of Death Steals only 340 at 12 Death but 420 at 16 Death.

105 damage from Death Nova at 16 Death instead of 85 from 12 Death.

Is Boon of Creation's 9 energy at 16 Spawning Power whenever you create a creature as good as soul reaping which triggers every time soemthing dies? Surely, spawning power actually has skills, but the usefullness of soul reaping in places where there are MANY monsters overshadows the 9 energy gain from boon of creation. But that is another discussion.

CONCLUSION
Judging by all the minion related skills, spawning power might be good for just making things that last longer in terms of armor ignoring attacks and degen, but they do not necessarily deal more damage or can take more damage (from armor-calculated attacks).

I never said they'd be better at it than necromancers. I just tried to end the speculation as to whether or not minions would have more life with spawning power using actual math. They will indeed do significantly less damage and have less armor.

Oh, and saying that putting all your points into spawning and death is useless makes no sense. All you need is death and a energy management attribute. I can do minions quite well with 16 death and 13 soul reaping. If you're doing pure minions you need no other attributes.

MSecorsky · Mar 15, 2006, 12:00 AM // 00:00

Quickie... does the MM build in discussion require Rit spirits?

ibex333 · Mar 15, 2006, 12:46 AM // 00:46

if minions, and pets are indeed considered summons, they should fix the descrip on the skill asap, since this will confuse lots of ppl. If it only affects spirits, that would suck real bad since many of the ritualists skills would be quite dull. If it affects all summons and pets, that would actually change A LOT.

S E V E R · Mar 15, 2006, 01:04 PM // 13:04

I'd love a necromancer skill that allows you to create horrors from all nearby corpses at the same time, a bit like revive animal for ranger. Would probably need a 25 energy cost and long charge time to be balanced though, and then be an elite...

Glasswalker · Mar 15, 2006, 11:20 PM // 23:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by MSecorsky

Quickie... does the MM build in discussion require Rit spirits?

So far, no mention of Rit Spirits have been brought up, but Shelter and Union might be of some use to prevent damage to the minions. Both of them are under Communing, and it's not obvious that the 3(+1) leftover points in Communing would be of much use; and the 25 Energy it would cost to cast them would really hurt.

I think if this build becomes viable, it will be without spirits.

TopGun · Mar 16, 2006, 12:31 AM // 00:31

We need to suppress something very quickly:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grimm

Oh, and saying that putting all your points into spawning and death is useless makes no sense. All you need is death and a energy management attribute. I can do minions quite well with 16 death and 13 soul reaping. If you're doing pure minions you need no other attributes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grimm

IF you're seriously doing minions you're going to need more than that. I have at least 10 total in soul reaping. If you're doing minions all you need is death and soul-reaping.

No. You can seriously churn minions and not have max death and soul reaping.

I use:
9(+1) Blood
9(+1) Soul Reaping
12(+3)(+1) Death Magic

For a total of 10 Blood, 10 Soul Reaping, and 16 Death Magic. The point of the ten blood? I can solo farm ettins, baby ;-)

Minion Masters govern their build on something I call "momentum." We need minions to kill creatures, thus giving us more corpses to make more minions to kill more hapless creatures. But there's a problem here- if I need ten or twelve horrors to kill a bunch of Ettins, how the hell am I going to make the minions to begin with? My inital (twisted, sadistic, cruel) idea was to kill those (helpless, pathetic) kittens roaming around kryta. They're the type of easy prey your minions can thrive on. Maybe I'm a big bully, but it worked.

The problem would be when I hit areas that didn't have kitty cats, or areas where it just wasn't feasible to kill excessive numbers of kittens- ie, most areas. So I decided to throw in some blood magic- Life Transfer, particularly. Blood Renewl also helps keep hp up while you're keeping your bitches alive. And Deathly Swarm would serve as good 3-man AOE damage. With this, I could rip up the mergoyles outside of Beetles.

So the ten blood magic is relevant, and good minion masters don't need to rack up soul reaping.

Glasswalker · Mar 17, 2006, 12:46 AM // 00:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by TopGun

No. You can seriously churn minions and not have max death and soul reaping.

Actually, your build uses the same 10 in SR that Grimm mentioned...
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My question is, if an N/? has Fiends that last for 4 minutes and do far more damage, and a Rt/N has Fiends that last for 9 minutes and do far less damage, by the time they die, who has done more damage?

That's the question I intend to answer next weekend. I'm making a few assumptions here, and I will test every one. Those Dummies on the Island of the Nameless should help with this, assuming I can get there next weekend with a primary Rt.

TopGun · Mar 19, 2006, 03:55 AM // 03:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glasswalker

My question is, if an N/? has Fiends that last for 4 minutes and do far more damage, and a Rt/N has Fiends that last for 9 minutes and do far less damage, by the time they die, who has done more damage?

Ah, that's an interesting theory... if the Rt minions really last that much longer, you'll be able to accumulate far more... but keep in mind, as the masses increase, the harder they become to heal, because Blood of the Master has a relatively small range.

Something to consider.

Guardian of the Light · Mar 19, 2006, 06:12 AM // 06:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by S E V E R

I'd love a necromancer skill that allows you to create horrors from all nearby corpses at the same time, a bit like revive animal for ranger. Would probably need a 25 energy cost and long charge time to be balanced though, and then be an elite...

Don't know how dependable this source is http://blippo.addr.com/newskills.txt

Animate Flesh Golem - Elite Spell - Death - 15e, 3c, 30r
Exploit nearest corpse to animate a lvl x Flesh golem. The flesh golem leaves an exploitable corpse. You can only have one Flesh golem.

Horseman Of War · Aug 03, 2006, 06:37 PM // 18:37

contrary to the feelings of some:

I have been playing Rt/N. Yes, the minions do less damage... but my main focus is not on the minions... its on the spirits, and having an army of veritable meat shields.

When there is not a minion master present, I can assume the role... if not, I just swap out my minion spells, or use them less.

***although REAL Necromancer will ALWAYS be a better "Straight Up MM", my minions will have more Hit Points.

I use shadowsong, pain, shelter, and union as my spirits... keeping them up at all times. I carry a single Minion skill- more than that is wasteful in my eyes as it becomes too distracting from using spirits effectively.

And yes, as someone stated above... I do not heal them or try to make an army like a Necro would... I use them as spirits so to speak... Corpse=Minion and then back to spirit spamming.

It is visually frightening to opponents. /boo helps with that :P And even if the other team tries to gank you, your shelte and union will allow you to remain focused on the state of the battle.

**Final Thoughts - Necro Primaries will never be repaced by an ele or rit for Uber-Minions. However, to say that Ritualist cannot use minions effectively is like saying a Ranger Stance is useless on a Warrior...

Aside from any kind of arguements one may have on the issue- it is REALLY FUN TO PLAY. Which is, the key to it all. Plus, people I group with always seem to appreciate my skills in pve missions...

Zinger314 · Aug 03, 2006, 07:42 PM // 19:42

It's impossible for a Ritualist to have enough energy management in order to make a full 10 minion army and sustain it at the same rate a Necromancer can. For that reason alone, Ritualist MMs don't work.